凌辱系エロゲー製造・販売禁止へ

Probably one of the most intelligent responses to this (^^^Dcg). I am not into the violent games regardless but the dehumanizing of women by rape, forced abortion is beyond despicable. There are healthier ways for demasculated males to regain what they feel as "lost dominance". What next, kidnapping and rape of small children?

Show the resources or references he used. I won't believe jack even if it comes from a professor. that's what research is for.

If you think I have the time to memorize every single source from every single lecture I have attended, you've got to be kidding me.

The fact that this is coming from a professor from MIT (plus countless other teachers, mentors, and people I have met) shows that it has enough validity to be taken into account, just like the statistics on rape occurrences that the 2ch member posted above.

NO, it doesn't have enough validity even if it comes from an MIT professor, because he's not here showing his sources; we only have your word and I need something references that prove it's not an opinion that's in the air.
There's something called the internet that even with all the misguiding information does have valid research available.

You know the most useful thing my professors taught me? don't believe everything anyone tells you, even themselves. RESEARCH. back up your opinions. Prove your point. If you don't do that, I could care less how important your professor is. As I said, he's not here, YOU are. Back up your words.

Alright then. You don't have to believe me. However, whether there is a correlation between real-life murders/rape and playing rape video games, discrimination is wrong and is the issue that we should be arguing rather than what makes a source valid, as we all know to not trust anyone.

Again, you're misunderstanding what this really is about.

You're the one who blatantly put us off-topic. :/

All I believe Yaku is saying is that statistics and facts are no-longer facts unless they have a solid source, and then at that point they still could be invalid with research.

And whether I understand it or not, discrimination is wrong.

@Vincent: I know. All I'm saying is something that I've been told as a fact all my life. Whether he believes it or not, it's completely pointless for him to argue it for obvious reasons.

@Mimi: Actually he was on-topic. It's just that the topic has been diverging into different tangents by different people. haha

@Melo: If the topic has been diverging on a tangent, then he's not on topic.

Yes but then we're all to blame because we all have been. ^_~

>>something that I've been told as a fact all my life

That discrimination is wrong? ok, but that's not what your statement above was about:

>>Almost all serial murderers/rapists are addicted to very extreme types of porn and games featuring rape.

This is what I was asking proof for. I didn't went off topic, you did because you jumped from your MIT professor statement from discrimination even though I didn't even mentioned it. Forgive me but I'm not following you right after every post you write. The first post I saw was your statement. That's what I was talking about.

I very much agree. The ability to enjoy fantasy, but also know that it is just that, fantasy, and should not be demonstrated in the real world, is an important part of human nature. When you blur that concept, is when the whole "games like this make people act this way in real life" issue has any kind of impact at all. In the end, it comes down the "individual" to make that statement into truth, and cannot IMO be applied in any way to the masses.

However, those issues are "real" compared to what Syranide brought up. "What freedom of speech?"

If we complain about things that supposedly don't even exist in today's society, then I really don't see where we're heading.

Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak freely without censorship or limitation (from wiki) [also applies to the arts, entertainment, etc...]

But rape-erotica does exist in our society. All these things will still exist even if we ban them. When we ban them, demand goes up, which could be seen with the amount of people torrenting RapeLay after E.N. announced they were successful in taking the game down. Plus its mindless to arrest someone for playing a game or making a game that is harmless.

I see where you're coming from. You make a good point in that, although complete freedom of speech is impossible to attain, one should strive for it if censorship harms them (not just one person but a significant group of people) significantly compared to had it not existed. Keep in mind that most censorship is meant to help rather than harm the people and children within society. But when it fails to achieve this for the majority of society, things should definitely be done.

However, I don't think that the banning of Rapelay and similar games has significantly harmed anyone more than it has helped promote a cause. Rape is wrong and women should not be discriminated against. :3

Wow, I'm going to take a break from debating. It seems like I'm garnering more personal hatred towards me from others than I am in having people actually listen to what I have to say before blowing up on me for seeking equality.

I hope nobody hates you :3 Even though all of us have different opinions on the matter, the next post on DC, we all all be happy and united as fans again. Its one of the unique nice things about this community ^^

I'm done also due to all points I feel I can contribute are posted, and I got work tomorrow morning and I'm tired ^^I

Thanks for the debate Mimi and sorry for making up ~10% (18/180) of the comments on your post Danny ^^I

"are you saying it ok to repress freedom of speech because it's happening everywhere anyways?"

No.

"that because it's "just a single game with with few connoisseurs" nobody should complain?"

No. I'm not saying that nobody should complain, but that if people want freedom of speech, why aren't they looking at the censorship going on all over the mass media?

"Please don't say things without thinking"

Speak for yourself. I don't appreciate hasty assumptions.

"The fact that it's a "single game that few have heard of" means that it was never intended to promote or to spread any opinions or ideas among extensive masses of people and is for simple enjoyment for a niche."

That doesn't mean that it doesn't indirectly spread the idea of the discrimination of women.

hi,mimi.I have some request for you.
Rapegame players are minority in japan.
And now,they are about to be persecuted.

We just have been sitting down by PC,and just masturbating.
But someone drags us out from my room,and they screamed out
"IT IS WOMAN DISCRIMINATIOOOOON!!!!!"

We just played rapegame silently.
It is discrimination of rapegame player.
PLEASE HELP.

Look at your statement. I hardly am to blame for how you write your opinions.

You're comparing a single post in a very specific blog with something huge as mass media and say people complain a lot about one but none for the other. Just because you don't hear every complain yourself doesn't mean people aren't complaining.

Dear god... it spreads the idea of discrimination of women as much as GTA expresses the idea that being a gangster is cool. It's fantasy. It's not real. It's a game. You're not supposed to do whatever happens in the game. if YOU WANT to think it's giving some sort of message that you must act upon then be my guest, but rapelay is hardly worse than real life porn enacting role-playing rape which is just as bad because it promotes the idea of rape if we follow your train of thought. Let's ban those too, only sweet romantic consensual porn should be allowed.

@tengu:

Boo hoo. A game was taken away from you.
There are women out there, especially in third-world nations, who can’t even have a job because of their gender. This can be reversed; however, the discrimination against women outweighs that against men by a ton. Many women today do not have equal opportunities as men.

@Yaku:
“Look at your statement. I hardly am to blame for how you write your opinions.”

Once again, you’re going off-topic.

“You're comparing a single post in a very specific blog with something huge as mass media and say people complain a lot about one but none for the other. Just because you don't hear every complain yourself doesn't mean people aren't complaining.”

Once again, who says that personal experiences cannot be applied to universal ideas and issues?

“Dear god... it spreads the idea of discrimination of women as much as GTA expresses the idea that being a gangster is cool. It's fantasy. It's not real. It's a game. You're not supposed to do whatever happens in the game.”

And yet some people do it anyway.

“if YOU WANT to think it's giving some sort of message that you must act upon then be my guest, but rapelay is hardly worse than real life porn enacting role-playing rape which is just as bad because it promotes the idea of rape if we follow your train of thought. Let's ban those too, only sweet romantic consensual porn should be allowed.”

If it discriminates against women, then it is wrong. Note that, throughout this topic, I have never expressed my opinion on whether Rapelay should be banned or not. Your hasty assumption disgusts me. All I’m saying is that discrimination is wrong, whether intentional or not. The degree of wrongness and whether it should be banned or not is a completely different issue.

@Mimi: I didn't really appreciate the way you responded to tengu. It lacked respect when someone is being honest. Would it not make someone be apprehensive because of that response and/or may take it out on someone else (ie. women in Japan)? Not to mention your response to him did go off-topic. He's only talking about the game and you go on without responding about it.

I'm not understanding your last paragraph either:
"Note that, throughout this topic, I have never expressed my opinion on whether Rapelay should be banned or not."

So on what have you been expressing this opinion about? Is this post not titled, "Rapelay", one of the games in question that is being banned? If you are keeping this strictly to this thread, then what Yaku's been saying about freedom of speech is the game itself. You cannot express an opinion about one and not the other.

1- A one sentence comment on your one sentence comment means going off topic.

2- You only hear it here, yet you don't hear it outside doesn't mean it's not happening. Nothing to do with universal ideas.

3- "Some people do it anyway" is not excuse to deprive the rest of the people. "some people use knives to kill" => let's ban knives. Makes no sense.

4- Hasty assumptions my foot. You come to a post about a game (rapelay) being banned. You don't like media promoting rape. Your very first post was:

"Almost all serial murderers/rapists are addicted to very extreme types of porn and games featuring rape."

So you actively participate in a post of the ban of a game about rape; using an MIT professor source to support the idea that these delinquents are addicted to these movies/games; ranting on discrimination against women and getting emotional over it. Forgive me if I misunderstood; since I'm grossly assuming you approve the ban of rapelay and thus all media depicting rape and such a thought disgusts you, then it must mean you don't want to approve of their ban?

Ah, before I make any more misunderstandings: I'm not sure if that is your very first post, it's just the first to appear.

Both of you are taking one or few of my points and either blowing them up to avoid my main argument or to make me look deliberately stupid.

The fact that I mentioned that you were off-topic was to try and get on topic and come to a conclusion, or at least something that we can both agree towards. I didn't mention these for you to take one off-topic sentence and do the same back, when clearly I have gone back to what I believe is the main issue over and over again.

@Lightningsabre: I don't respect the fact that you have criticized the way I sound, rather than what's in the debate itself. :/ If people are ignoring my main point and accusing me personally without acknowledging that discrimination actually does occur universally, they are not approaching this debate maturely.

He's talking about discrimination against rape game players. All I'm trying to say is that discrimination against women is a much larger issue.

@Yaku: You refute my assumption with an assumption. Whether I use personal examples or not, discrimination does occur universally. The fact that you failed to acknowledge that and target me personally for using personal examples when I did use universal ones too is immature. You cannot just take one point that I made in which you disagree on and go on a tangent from that. In debate, no matter how much you disagree with the view of the person you are arguing with, in order to get anywhere and to reach some sort of conclusion, you have to at least acknowledge the parts of the opponent's argument that are correct. In this case, I believe you didn't acknowledge that rape is wrong or that discrimination against women is bad and does exist, both of which I believe are very on-topic compared to talking about professors at MIT (which you refused to acknowledge that I have been told that fact throughout my life from many teachers and mentors.. see? You take one part of my argument and don't see the rest).

Once again, you should not make assumptions. Just because I support women's equality doesn't mean that I support every single action of Equality Now. Just because I'm a democrat doesn't mean that I support every view of every democratic leader out there. :/

I am very disappointed in where this debate is going (nowhere) because of what you both have been doing. Instead of criticizing me personally and taking one point to divert to a different topic where I am wrong or not wrong, both of you should keep in mind that the point of this argument is not to criticize me, whether it's the tone of my voice or what sources I use. Yaku not trusting any sources will not get you anywhere in life.

>>Both of you are taking one or few of my points and either blowing them up to avoid my main argument or to make me look deliberately stupid.

Ditto to you.

Sabre wrote respectfully about how you were rude yet you take it as a personal insult (you indeed sounded rude) and also dismiss his questions. You're the one getting personal with everybody and snapping like the world is against you. This debate is going nowhere because you avoid questions, take personal jabs where there aren't any, nit-pick at every single word other people post, and are rude to them among other things.

You use an MIT source? I ask for the source. Seriously, stop blabbing "this is fact because my teacher told me so" and show me proof if you keep on claiming is "fact".

What do you want me to agree with? I agree that discrimination against women is very much real just like any other discrimination and we should be concerned with it, and if you say that's your point (which it is) then of course I agree with you, but I'm trying to tell you that's not what this is about, it's about banning media depicting rape and how it is violating freedom of speech. Yet you take it all personally, dismiss it as something irrelevant to the debate and insult me.

Stop ranting to cover up the fact you didn't answer my question. Do you approve of the ban?

I'll stop here because there's nothing to discuss with you. If you'd like to again grab my whole post and "blow it out of proportions" or about how I'm going off tangent then be my guest.

I'm understanding your response to him now and understand that it wasn't as off-topic as I thought. And yes, I understand that discrimination against women is a larger issue, but it doesn't justify more discrimination. I don't appreciate your response to tengu because it can sound discriminatory if someone takes it the wrong way. I would hate to assume that this is a part of the discrimination that occurs universally...

I only took one of the points from your debate because I'm actually curious what you mean by it. I'm listening/reading to both sides, but this one point about you not expressing your opinion about Rapelay being banned or not just didn't make sense to me.

@Yaku:

“Ditto to you.”

Nope. I have quoted all of your paragraphs and replied to them individually, unlike you, who just points out MIT as not a credible source when I have listed a lot more than just MIT. You have not listed any sources, and just by having them, many of which are indeed from intelligent minds, my argument stands stronger than your sourceless one.

“Sabre wrote respectfully about how you were rude yet you take it as a personal insult (you indeed sounded rude) and also dismiss his questions.”

It is a personal insult to say that someone has been rude instead of, or placed on top of, arguing the topic at hand. And I answered his question, as seen above. Unlike you, he isn’t here to argue ME. He and I are here to talk this through INTELLIGENTLY and reach a conclusion instead of bicker over whose sources are better. :/

“You're the one getting personal with everybody and snapping like the world is against you. This debate is going nowhere because you avoid questions, take personal jabs where there aren't any, nit-pick at every single word other people post, and are rude to them among other things.”

Once again, I have answered everything, unlike you. This debate is getting nowhere because you are avoiding the fundamentals of intelligent debate. You are asking for my opinions (below), which I thought any intelligent person should know is completely different from fact.

“You use an MIT source? I ask for the source. Seriously, stop blabbing "this is fact because my teacher told me so" and show me proof if you keep on claiming is "fact".”

Once again, you’re avoiding the fundamentals of intelligent debate by taking one source and arguing its validity when clearly I have given many other universal sources too. And you should speak for yourself in that you have never given any sources either. I can’t believe you even have the courage to criticize me for something that you fall for too. :/

“What do you want me to agree with? I agree that discrimination against women is very much real just like any other discrimination and we should be concerned with it, and if you say that's your point (which it is) then of course I agree with you, but I'm trying to tell you that's not what this is about, it's about banning media depicting rape and how it is violating freedom of speech.”

And yet you have not given any evidence for this. All you have done is criticize me for using MIT as a source and other trivial issues.

“Yet you take it all personally, dismiss it as something irrelevant to the debate and insult me.”

I have every reason to take it personally because you are in fact targeting me for insignificant reasons, like using MIT as a source and for using personal experiences. :/ If you ever claim my personal experiences are insignificant to the holistic knowledge that I have gained, then you are indeed insulting me.

“Stop ranting to cover up the fact you didn't answer my question. Do you approve of the ban?”

There’s a difference between asking for opinion and asking for facts. That’s like asking me what color is better, red or yellow? And then arguing against my opinion on the issue, which clearly doesn’t even matter, which shows how ridiculous you are being. I am very disappointed in how you are asking for opinions instead of facts.

I am saddened by the fact that you don’t support your arguments with any evidence at all, and that you’re arguing my evidence instead of giving your own. This tells me that you’re arguing ME instead of the issue at hand. You’re not contributing any knowledge to the debate. I do not enjoy arguing with hypocrites.

“I'll stop here because there's nothing to discuss with you. If you'd like to again grab my whole post and "blow it out of proportions" or about how I'm going off tangent then be my guest.”

Actually, you could have easily discussed about whether the issue is women’s rights or censorship. Instead, you have argued that MIT isn’t a credible source in almost every single reply. You have been a hypocrite in not giving any sources yourself while criticizing me when I have given multiple sources. Instead of trying to reach a conclusion or compromise, you take what I have pointed out and say it back in my face, as if that’ll change my beliefs.

This was one of the saddest debates that I have joined in the history of my DC membership. If you actually took your points and argued them with supporting evidence, I may have understood what you meant. Arguing ME (that my personal experiences cannot apply universally, etc) is not going to change my beliefs. Putting actual knowledge (that is, backed up with evidence) into the debate will, which you have clearly failed to do.

@Lightningsabre:

“I'm understanding your response to him now and understand that it wasn't as off-topic as I thought.”

I apologize for any misunderstandings I may have caused.

“And yes, I understand that discrimination against women is a larger issue, but it doesn't justify more discrimination.”

That is true. Using discrimination to get rid of discrimination in another form… hmm that would be an interesting topic to discuss. I wonder if it would be possible to get rid of discrimination without discriminating back. Like Affirmative Action, which uses discrimination (against “majorities”) in response to discrimination against minorities. O.o

“I don't appreciate your response to tengu because it can sound discriminatory if someone takes it the wrong way.”

You’re absolutely right. I can see how it could be taken the wrong way.

“I would hate to assume that this is a part of the discrimination that occurs universally...”

Agreed.

“I only took one of the points from your debate because I'm actually curious what you mean by it. I'm listening/reading to both sides, but this one point about you not expressing your opinion about Rapelay being banned or not just didn't make sense to me.”

I’m not here to argue opinions on whether it should be banned or not, because everyone has their own opinions about the magnitude of rape and the influence of games over society. I was trying to show some of the reasons behind why they made the decision to ban the game in the first place, to help people understand why Equality Now was able to come out victorious because of their cause to seek for the equality of women in society. By winning the case, they were most likely able to show that censorship (which happens all the time in society) is needed in this case to prevent the concept of discrimination against women.

This.

I don't think that the main issue here is about freedom of speech. Whether it exists or not is a completely different issue to discuss.

One of the main problems with that is that the ESRB is not actively enforced by a lot of stores. Every store I've been to in my neighborhood, and everywhere else that I lived, don't ask for ID before selling games such as GTA. Then there's also that one father that came in and bought GTA, telling me he was buying it for his daughter.

What it boils down to is that these restrictions aren't enforced. If what is in games influences people, it doesn't do so overnight. It would take time, and a lot of it, to do anything influential.

This isn't as bad as the Disney escapade atm, however.

It's the parents responsibility to decide and to know what kind of games their children buy. If the parent buys a restricted game to their small children that's not the game's fault, is the faulty judgment of the parent.

My impression was that games of this genre give the player a personal space where taking away a victim's power, consent, and "human rights" is okay to do (male or female). While I agree that games may not influence most people to act as they do in the game, the ideas the game lets a player associate with the pleasure of masturbation are the issue of concern. You are giving the player a tangible reward for being the perpetrator in rape.

As comparison, do you think a game that gave you money or a dose of dopamine every time you shot a Mexican (or insert immigrant here) crossing a border would be received any better?

Sure there are violent video games that a player may feel good about playing, but are doing it for a reward of competition against other players? The accomplishment of being l33t in the game? Of getting achievements or trophies? If someone whacks off while whacking someone, then there is a flaw in my proposition; but _all_ ryojoku games are made for the player to associate with physical pleasure.

@Mimi.

I made this post in response to your repeated rebuttal to other people's comments with 'our freedom of speech is being taken away in the mass media everywhere already, so why the focus on this one?' / 'it's impossible to obtain freedom of speech'

Well that's true with anyone. Drunkards don't get far because they spend all their money on alcohol. Stereotypical Basement Geeks don't get far due to they spend all their money on video games. People who have the motivation to live with their fandom and live responsibly can easily live their life to the fullest without having to sacrifice their obsessive loves.

Exactly. And I don't see many obsessive otaku besides Danny and a few other people being massively successful.

It is incredibly hard to manage both a really hardcore otaku life and a real academic career or job, plus other hobbies that may interest oneself.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't know many otaku who have become like Danny from their otaku passion alone.

Well it could be a issue of environment I suppose.

While I could be wrong on this, I feel Danny got to his first step in his goals with his motivation to move to Japan and its culture, not just because hes an otaku. The same can be said about Jero, an african-american Enka singer from Pittsburgh, HIMEKA, an anison singer from Canada, and Emiry, an Idol in Japan that started as a net-celebrity in America for her love of Japan. If you work hard enough, it doesn't manner what your obsessions are, you can make your own chance to live your dream and still be true to yourself.

That's true. Also, a lot of luck is involved. :3 Also, the luck of beautiful genes does play a role if you want to become an idol/famous cosplayer/a profession where looks count.

It does bring me great joy to see people like Danny becoming famous from his passions without huge doses of luck from other areas though. :'] I guess it kind of gives me hope that you can do anything if you work for it.

Well, Danny is an entrepreneur. He's generating income, he's not just spending it. It all depends how creative you are. There are people who take the unconventional route and turn their hobbies and interests into a business. That's why entrepreneurs are different.

Patric Macias.
Shokotan.
Amano Ai.
Patrick Gal.. forgot his last name ^^;

All successful Otaku - Probably a load more.

Women aren't a minority. There are actually more women in the world than men.

Women are universally a minority, because, although they may surpass men in number, they do not have nearly as much power and influence as men. They are also discriminated against, which correlates to being the minority.

So although they are greater in number, they are smaller in power and influence.

Okay here we go the women discrimination card gets played again.

Rapelay doesn't discriminate a minority anymore than, let say 60% (not really a real statistic) of video games display men as muscular powerhouses incapable of intellegent conversation or lets say every mass murder in video games are displayed as men, as far as i see this is discrimination as well as it will enforce the belief that this is how men really are.

Now women are oppressed in the third world but since this has nothing to do with the third world i'll talk about the 1st world so to say.

Atleast where im from and i think this is a general trend, more women are now attending to universities than men. Yet despite being more at the universities they keep on getting more and more fonding to get more women into universities, this is to me discrimination.

Furthermore in 2008 marked the year where more male complaints than female complaints about sex inequality was filled to the goverment, yet most people chose to blantly disregard this fact, as the popular idea that women are discriminated are still heavily being portraited by feminist movements and as a man standing up against any of these movements will get you marked as a women hater and is generally social unacceptable, this is again discrimination against men.

There are several ohter similar inequality issues regarding men such as men recieving harsher penalties when facing court trials, girls recieving higher priority throughout primary schools as well (americas forgotten boys, migth be and interesting read)

That being said theres still is discrimination against women, but don't make it so one sided, women are in the 1st world no longer a minority in my opinion anymore, than males are.

“Okay here we go the women discrimination card gets played again.”

Why else did Equality Now win their case?

“Rapelay doesn't discriminate a minority anymore than, let say 60% (not really a real statistic) of video games display men as muscular powerhouses incapable of intellegent conversation or lets say every mass murder in video games are displayed as men, as far as i see this is discrimination as well as it will enforce the belief that this is how men really are.”

That is definitely discrimination as well: Men are portrayed as strong and willing to take risks, while women are portrayed as the weak ones in society.

“Now women are oppressed in the third world but since this has nothing to do with the third world i'll talk about the 1st world so to say.”

That’s not necessarily true, as many prominent countries like China, according to my AP Human Geography textbook, are still third-world countries. It’s hard to say that, in about 1/3(?) of the world’s population, discrimination doesn’t occur and rape games don’t exist.

“Atleast where im from and i think this is a general trend, more women are now attending to universities than men. Yet despite being more at the universities they keep on getting more and more fonding to get more women into universities, this is to me discrimination.”

Whether more women or men attend universities, women, in general, do not have the same opportunities as men in life. Men are usually the first at everything (to become rich, to vote, to get high-paying jobs, to found a nation, etc), which can be seen throughout history and in the present as well.

“Furthermore in 2008 marked the year where more male complaints than female complaints about sex inequality was filled to the goverment, yet most people chose to blantly disregard this fact, as the popular idea that women are discriminated are still heavily being portraited by feminist movements and as a man standing up against any of these movements will get you marked as a women hater and is generally social unacceptable, this is again discrimination against men.”

It’s true that men are discriminated too. However, women are discriminated against more in many different ways. It’s been known throughout most American kids’ childhoods that being called a “girl” is not a good thing… that being a “man,” however, is something positive… and that being a “feminist,” “bitch,” “whore,” etc is bad. It makes me sad that there is no common male-equivalent to many of these words, that these words are supposed to be aimed at women. Since humans existed, women have always been viewed and treated as underdogs of society. As a personal example, piano competition and debate judges tend to discriminate against women because they tend to appear weaker and, in debate, their voices sound “bitchier,” which is why my partner and I lost state debate (which also resulted in a scandal of sorts because of the ridiculousness of the judges). If you would like me to further explain with more details and examples, please do speak up.

“There are several ohter similar inequality issues regarding men such as men recieving harsher penalties when facing court trials, girls recieving higher priority throughout primary schools as well (americas forgotten boys, migth be and interesting read)”

It might be true that, in failures, men tend to receive the harsher punishment. However, it must be noted that it is partially due to the fact that society views men as the ones who are willing to take risks and get into trouble, both of which are better than the women’s stereotypes of staying at home and whining. Some people just can’t imagine a woman committing dreadful crimes, because they are supposed to be well-behaved.

I agree, through the article you mentioned, that girls may in fact receive higher priority throughout schooling. However, I cannot believe that it is merely a coincidence that every single student body president at my school, and my friend’s school in Japan as well, have always been men. While women may have clubs and activities made for them, it’s still the men who dominate the student body.

“That being said theres still is discrimination against women, but don't make it so one sided, women are in the 1st world no longer a minority in my opinion anymore, than males are.”

I’m guessing you meant “3rd world.” :3 Although women may no longer be a minority in number, until the day the words “girl,” “bitch,” etc no longer have negative connotations, until the day the number of women making new innovations and holding effective leadership positions is equal to that of men, until the day that my partner’s “bitchy” voice does not prevent her from winning a debate tournament, until the day the number of women protagonists in prominent children’s books is equal to that of men, etc etc etc and until the day feminists are viewed as equality seekers rather than the skewed definitions that people have put over the term, I will always believe that discrimination against women happens at a greater magnitude than discrimination against men.

Actually i didn't want to reply here but, since theres no better way to do it (yet) i will.

First of i do agree with your points women are discriminated against and yes there are plenty of male jerks left in the world, however i would merely like to direct the point of view that the coin has two sides.

So heres a few more examples:

Family court heavily favor women giving them the child in 92% of the cases, this is direct discrimination against men, based on the bias that they are somehow worse of at taking care of children

You mention the stereotype that women are weak and should stay at home, but this stereotype also have another affect allowing women to chose between working or taking care of the household and children, but its still very acceptable for them to work. This i personally believe is not the same for men as almost our only lifestyle choice is work (my father was a housewife though and i praise him for going against the stream and i think i should be more acceptable, heck i migth even do it)

On health there is also severe discrimination especially in the cancer area as The United States invests approximately $16,700 to find a cure for each life lost to prostate cancer; more than $21,800 for each life lost to breast cancer. This is again discrimination of men

An on a more personal level, in my town atleast women can get free into plenty of bars, while men have to pay, while it may not be so serious i think this is discrimination aswell.

I think that will be it, for now it's and interesting debate afterall, but i think my main point if any is that even though the female problems migth be (yeah i think they probaly are but i dont relly know by how much). Atleast they recieve attention and there are many places you can go to for help in these cases, whereas men have no such thing at all, most people are hardly aware or even care about male discrimination.

I would like to add that i am saddened to hear that you have experienced discrimination and am also severely fustrated by the sheer amount of male jerks that still exist in this world, but i thing basically in my opinion it would seem to me that feminist are figthing for womens rigths and i think they should brand themselves as equalist (that what i consider myself anyway) and then try to take on some cases of male discrimination aswell.

Yeah. It's like telling a victim of slavery, or one whose ancestors were enslaved, that slavery was nothing. It really does not make one look good when one makes such hasty assumptions just because it never happened to them.

LoL I meant no harm. It was an older post where you commented, but I brought it up because it's an interesting point of view. Not many would want to try to play the game because of the title, yet here you are, quite the opposite of the target audience, having played it and liked it. It shows that it's just as it is... a game and not something you take into real life, obviously.

Oh and I could type it in all caps next. Would you prefer that? ^^;

I know I was just kidding ^^ it's just a game, didn't make me a rapist and in all sincerity not everyone should play this game, because a lot of people tend to confuse reality with fantasy.

Please do type in caps, people in China didn't hear you either XD

Equality Now won their case because it would be career suicide for any politician to say that they are for games that re-enact rape.

The statistic is also skewed for men due to the larger shame stigma that is attached to male-rape; proven by a crime survey showing that 40% of all sex-crimes are even reported to authorities, with sex-crimes against males at only 10% being reported (no statistics available for female->male rape)

Equality Now won their case because they promote the equality of women, and Rapelay happens to discriminate against them.

Although statistics are unreliable, it is a fact that women are a minority in many nations and are treated unfairly in many aspects in many nations, including Japan. It is also true that it is easier to rape women, to due less physical strength to fight back as well as easier access.

It isn't. In fact, it's being downplayed quite a bit despite it occuring irl just as much, if not more, than discrimination against racial minorities.

"If there was a video game where white people killed black people, that game would be banned right away, not because of murder, but because of discrimination."

It is hard to define what is "white" and "black," especially in video games. However, it is easy to distinguish women from men, which is why it is easier to win cases regarding gender than race a lot of times.

I agree with Maime.

Women do not, "in my personal experiences", receive any more discrimination than anyone else, and I would like to see any sources that prove they do. I have seen much more discrimination along the lines of race (majorities as well as minorities) than women in "my" life. So if it is your own personal experiences Mimi, then I can accept that, but I cannot accept it as a general statement regarding all women.

The fact is that women get discriminated against a lot more and to a greater degree than most minorities do. It's hard to identify if a specific race or ethnicity is being targeted in video games, especially if the opponent is all of a different color, which doesn't always represent a different ethnicity. However, it's quite easy for a person to tell if the people being targeted are women or men. All I'm saying is that it makes it easier for Equality Now to win their case.

Your not really answering what I am asking Mimi. I understand your point that it is easier to distinguish a woman in a game than a specific ethnicity. What I am asking, is where is your "proof" that women ARE being discriminated against more AND to a higher degree? Being easier to distinguish the discrimination doesn't mean it occurs more often or to a greater degree, it just means you can more easily tell that it is happening.

For example, I can more easily distinguish a man getting hit with a chair from across the street, than if he got hit with some gum, but it doesn't mean people get hit with chairs more often. Bad example, I know, but do you get my point?

It's not about censorship. It's about discrimination against women, a universal issue that has to be handled as such. Women in the U.S. are fortunate to even have a voice. And since they have one, it is only their duty to promote universal equality.

You didn't answer my question: While censorship happens all the time in the mass media and elsewhere, why are people getting hyped up about banning a single game that the majority of them haven't even played before?

Oh, sorry ^^I Didn't see it there. I must say I do enjoy this debate with you!

This game can be seen as both an icon of this genre & it's related genres and as a beginning of a large rolling snowball. Also the concept of banning something/prohibition has been seen to fail more than protect.

Many people are worried that if this game gets banned, what will stop these groups from banning majority of AV, Hentai, Doujins, etc.... Now that E.N. knows that they have enough power in-order to convince the Japanese Government to ban rape eroges, doesn't it make sense that they should try to cleanse the whole erotica market of rape (even though the haven't tried to do that at all with the rape-erotica market of America).

This event is a much of a milestone as the man in Iowa going to jail for 15 years for possession of Loli-con. It tells the groups that they have the power to ban such media and it shows the lawyers/courts that they have a precedent case to base their future cases off of.

Ohh I enjoy debating you too! Debate is among my peculiar hobbies next to otakuism. xD

I understand that people want to avoid a slippery slope. However, slippery slopes are a logical fallacy, as they assumer that point A (banning Rapelay and related games) will lead to point B (banning all porn/internet/etc).

Guys... censorship's #1 reason is this: Kids.
We don't want unnecessary exposure for our children at such a young age. That's why censorship exists in America.

The radio and youtube are easily accessible by children, and seeing as how pornography has a legal age requirement to view, you can't be hosting porn on youtube when a very large amount of viewers are under age.

Same with the radio; it is very easily accessible with tiny devices in this modern age. Something that a child can easily obtain. The air waves that the radio stations transmit are 'public' and there is no "Are you old enough to listen to this?" filter applicable.

Rated 18+ movies,shows, etc. allow profanity without censorship. Pornography has an age requirement of 18. This case of censorship is not a freedom of speech issue. It's an exposure issue; to the under aged.

The issue at hand, rapelay, has a proper age 18 restriction on it. As such, it is properly 'adult content,' and banning it impedes on freedom of speech/expression. It is irrelevant to the censorship of the mass media, which is easily accessible to children.

The idea of the discrimination of women has real impacts on real victims, no matter how much people try to dodge and avoid it.

The idea that "rape is worse than death" may also have real impacts. However, it is, personally, something that I have regarded as the truth from early on in my life. Once again, I will not put icing over the concept of rape, as rape is bad, period. The degree to which it is bad is completely personal opinion. However, you should not let the opinions of one person offend you to such a level... to the point where you're completely off topic from the main issue at hand.

Basically, I'd rather tell what, to me, has been regarded as the truth than suppress the reality of how bad rape really is. Whether you agree with it or not, you should not target me for telling women to go kill themselves after reading my opinion, which is ridiculous. Just like you can link my statements to rape victims committing suicide, I can link squirrels to nuclear war. It is important to stick with the issue at hand rather than point fingers at people personally.

It's definitely worse to downplay the issue of rape.

By the way, I think it's really immature of you to attack me personally. :/

You're clearly getting way to hyped up about how I'm being a hypocrite rather than discussing the banning of Rapelay. And whether you see me as a hypocrite or not, rape is still bad.

*sigh* Your 3 posts are rambling all over the place, Mimi. I think you're getting just as "hyped up" as you say that I am.

Look, I think rape is one of the worst things that could happen to someone. It is precisely because it is so heinous that we must not perpetuate the all-too-common lie that rape victims are better off dead. The idea that "rape is worse than death" clearly supports that lie. When victims believe that lie, it directly interferes with their recovery and how well they respond to counseling. The well-being and recovery of the actual victims should be our number one priority, not some mere idea.

You say that I'm "downplaying" rape, but I say the idea you're perpetuating downplays rape victims. I may be getting emotional, but clearly so are you. You're so emotionally attached to that idea ( you even say "regarded as the truth from early in my life" ), that you're being blinded to how it actually interferes with the recovery and healing of real people.

If you think this is getting off-topic and too personal, then I'll stop right here. I think I've said more than enough to make my point.

“*sigh* Your 3 posts are rambling all over the place, Mimi. I think you're getting just as "hyped up" as you say that I am.”

After you’ve targeted me personally, I have every reason to be hyped up about it. :/ I don’t care about what you think of me, but bringing it into the debate is immature and wrong.

“Look, I think rape is one of the worst things that could happen to someone. It is precisely because it is so heinous that we must not perpetuate the all-too-common lie that rape victims are better off dead. The idea that "rape is worse than death" clearly supports that lie. When victims believe that lie, it directly interferes with their recovery and how well they respond to counseling. The well-being and recovery of the actual victims should be our number one priority, not some mere idea.”

This argument is not going to get anywhere. It’s like religion. Different people believe different things, and you’re not going to change what I’ve been taught all my life. I don’t see why you’re still going at it like this... in addition to the accusation that I’m telling women to go kill themselves because of my beliefs.

“You say that I'm "downplaying" rape, but I say the idea you're perpetuating downplays rape victims. I may be getting emotional, but clearly so are you. You're so emotionally attached to that idea ( you even say "regarded as the truth from early in my life" ), that you're being blinded to how it actually interferes with the recovery and healing of real people.”

Once again, I’m not going to kill rape victims with my beliefs. :/ If you’re against them so much, then you’d probably be distraught that many people believe this as well. Trying to stop one person (which is frugal in and of itself) is not going to stop the spread of said belief. Many rape victims do suffer traumatically from the experience. Some go into depression, and some try to commit suicide, not because they read on DannyChoo.com that Mimi said that rape is worse than death, but because of the trauma associated with the experience.

“If you think this is getting off-topic and too personal, then I'll stop right here. I think I've said more than enough to make my point.”

You were personal from the start. :/

There's been strong advances recently in trauma treatment, especially involving propranolol which addresses the emotional trauma. I remember an account where the new treatment was able to let a rape victim recover emotionally enough to be able to seek justice against her attacker. It "gave her life back".

Don't forget, male prison rape is treated as a mainstream joke everywhere.

I understand that Rapelay is not meant to openly discriminate against women. However, the idea of raping women is discriminatory in itself.

Yaku, I have covered many other issues relating to mysogyny before. Let's be realistic. It's impossible to ban make up. However, it is possible to ban games that (intentionally or unintentionally) promote the idea of the degrading of women.

Although men suffer from discrimination, women suffer from it a lot more on a universal level. It's the women who are under the glass ceiling, and even with Affirmative Action, many women who are unfortunately Asian will be inversely affected by it anyway. Men are almost always the first to succeed in everything. This includes being a successful otaku like Danny among the many examples that I can give.

I have been personally discriminated against as a woman, not because of where I come from, but because of society's view of women in general. Lots of women in Japan are supposed to grow up to work in the kitchen, which is part of why my family moved to the U.S. in the first place. I could go on and on about the glass ceiling, but I hope you understand by now why I feel so strongly towards women's rights.

What? are you seriously putting your experience as an asian female as grounds for your stance?? let me tell you I was personally discriminated -and still am- for the first 20 years of my life for being asian, being a woman, I've been groped, Asians themselves regard my opinion as less important either for my gender or my age and they also think a woman shouldn't smoke or drink BECAUSE they are women, you should marry a virgin, etc etc etc and this is not just some distant relative but direct family; and you think that's a good justification for your opinion of banning a game?

Let me tell you one thing, I've never used the unchangeable circumstances I was born with as an excuse to justify oppression of other people or their opinions whatsoever, included those of my asian family; I proved that I can be just as good as any person regardless of gender or ethnicity and I they can kiss the ground for discriminating me.

Please spare me your sob story, everyone is discriminated for something, you're just putting one as more important than the others. Since you used yourself as an example I used that same situation which I suffered myself and more and I am not delusional in thinking banning a game will resolve discrimination against women, in fact we're being mocked for being a fanatic group (which Equality Now is) which in consequence undermines even more the credibility of actual equality.

If you want to justify banning a game due to "discrimination of women" (which is obviously not the point here) by using your own experiences, let me give you a piece of advice: stand up for your own worth but use common sense, learn to think logically. banning a game will do nothing to lessen discrimination of any kind.

BDSM is completely different.

Slave and Master both consent. Rape = no consent. Or did you miss that part?

Slutty singers, want to be slutty, they enjoy the money and attention.
Theres a reason rape victims are called VICTIMS.

If we dont ban rape games, where does it stop? Where do we draw the line? Someone makes a GURO game, then its also fine? Why dont we start chopping up the victims while they are being raped, that is free speech?

Or maybe we should stop this now, before we have to deal with that.

Undyingsoldier read my post carefully.

No, BDSM is different when it only involves two (or more) consensual people doing it for their own pleasure. When it becomes a tape or game and only the act is shown then it simply depicts the idea of master and slave used as a sexual object. THEN it's discrimination. Slutty singers do want their money, they still promote the idea that only your looks will make you popular to the population watching them.

Listen undyingSoldier, rapelay is not real, just as BDSM is not really about abusing and tying a person and slutty singers don't really back up their songs about being sexual objects, I'm using mimi's logic to justify the banning of a game.

But ok then, let's do it that way, let's ban these game. Let's ban GTA too for promoting that a life of crime leads to money and social prestige, let's ban movies that discriminate stereotypes of any kind, physica, social, racial, gender, whatever. Don't complain when your own interests are suppressed too. After all, when will it stop?

Oh and by the way? probably there are already 10-15 guro games out there, you just didn't hear about them.

“What? are you seriously putting your experience as an asian female as grounds for your stance?? let me tell you I was personally discriminated -and still am- for the first 20 years of my life for being asian, being a woman, I've been groped, Asians themselves regard my opinion as less important either for my gender or my age and they also think a woman shouldn't smoke or drink BECAUSE they are women, you should marry a virgin, etc etc etc and this is not just some distant relative but direct family; and you think that's a good justification for your opinion of banning a game?”

Since when was it impossible to apply personal experiences to universal concepts? :/

“Let me tell you one thing, I've never used the unchangeable circumstances I was born with as an excuse to justify oppression of other people or their opinions whatsoever, included those of my asian family; I proved that I can be just as good as any person regardless of gender or ethnicity and I they can kiss the ground for discriminating me.”

I’m glad to hear that. However, there is nothing wrong with me using the circumstances that I was born with to prove a point. Personal examples can sometimes be just as valuable as general statistics, because, despite their inaccuracies, if we eliminate both of them, we wouldn’t have anything left. It’s better to be in the ballpark than not to be.

“Please spare me your sob story, everyone is discriminated for something, you're just putting one as more important than the others.”

And since discrimination is wrong, I am fighting against it in the form that I know best. :/

“Since you used yourself as an example I used that same situation which I suffered myself and more and I am not delusional in thinking banning a game will resolve discrimination against women, in fact we're being mocked for being a fanatic group (which Equality Now is) which in consequence undermines even more the credibility of actual equality.”

And here I reply with your own statement:
“and you think that's (personal experience is) a good justification for your opinion of banning a game?”
In debate, contradicting yourself is not how you’re going to prove to me anything. And even if the first part of your statement is sarcastic, the second part is clearly not.

“in fact we're being mocked for being a fanatic group”

Well-behaved women rarely make history.

“If you want to justify banning a game due to "discrimination of women" (which is obviously not the point here) by using your own experiences, let me give you a piece of advice: stand up for your own worth but use common sense, learn to think logically. banning a game will do nothing to lessen discrimination of any kind.”

It would be wise if you realized that personal experiences can indeed apply to universal ideas and issues. I actually have no strong opinion on whether the game should be banned or not. However, I have learned from personal experiences *ahem* that discrimination is wrong nonetheless and it’s ridiculous how so many people are whining about how their freedom of speech is being taken away, despite the obvious logical fallacies associated with it.

Crazy women did not do history, well educated women did. Well-behaved account for that group too, unless you'll go on to tell me what your meaning for well behaved is...

Universal Concepts also include freedom of speech, which you are going against if you want to support the ban of fiction. Outright banning is a violation of one such freedom.

I've stated my experiences not to back up my own stance, but to show how ridiculous you sound using it to justify the ban of a game.

The moment you used the "I'm discriminated as female asian" card I called bullshit. You're going on a fanatic rant trying to nit-pick at everything single word everyone says to find little holes to pull excuses out (and I'm still interested in the sources from your MIT prof. Surely you must remember some keywords since the lecture was so moving).

Dear. God. I understand you and your situation, but if you really think this is the best way to fight discrimination against women... then you finally leave my speechless... I'd suggest you that there are more meaningful ways to help our fellow women because banning fiction will not help in your cause; it never did.

One more thing. Freedom of Speech is the issue here, not discrimination against women.

“Crazy women did not do history, well educated women did. Well-behaved account for that group too, unless you'll go on to tell me what your meaning for well behaved is...”

You clearly do not see why that quote is so famous. :/ You also contradicted yourself by not giving a valid source for your argument. Also, there’s a difference between women who rebel and “crazy” women. Listen to what I say and not what you think I’m saying.

“Universal Concepts also include freedom of speech, which you are going against if you want to support the ban of fiction. Outright banning is a violation of one such freedom.”

I never said that I supported it. Your hasty assumptions disgust me. Plus, I’m supporting equality for women, not whether freedom of speech should be allowed/not allowed, in which the answer is obvious.

“I've stated my experiences not to back up my own stance, but to show how ridiculous you sound using it to justify the ban of a game.”

Personal experiences can apply universally. I don’t understand why I have to repeat this so many times before you get it.

“The moment you used the "I'm discriminated as female asian" card I called bullshit. You're going on a fanatic rant trying to nit-pick at everything single word everyone says to find little holes to pull excuses out (and I'm still interested in the sources from your MIT prof. Surely you must remember some keywords since the lecture was so moving).”

No. I am not using that to justify everything. I am, however, using it to say that women are discriminated against. You have obviously overlooked the universal evidence that I have used and taken only my personal experience into account. Your argument is flawed in that you don’t believe my sources but state many un-sourced arguments yourself. Also, if you expect me to remember every single source from every single lecture I’ve attended, you have got to be kidding me.

“Dear. God. I understand you and your situation, but if you really think this is the best way to fight discrimination against women... then you finally leave my speechless... I'd suggest you that there are more meaningful ways to help our fellow women because banning fiction will not help in your cause; it never did.”

I don’t and I never said so. Your assumptions disgust me.

“One more thing. Freedom of Speech is the issue here, not discrimination against women.”

Not even a source? I’m disappointed. You targeted me for using personal examples and an MIT professor as sources without acknowledging that I have used many universal sources as well. And you counter my argument without even using a source? I’m done talking to you. :/

Again...

1- Nit-picking.
2- Asking me for sources when you don't give any (I play on fair grounds and don't bother to give any since you just dismissed it when I asked for some):

>>Almost all serial murderers/rapists are addicted to very extreme types of porn and games featuring rape. <-- fair enough. Prove it.

>>If you think I have the time to memorize every single source from every single lecture I have attended, you've got to be kidding me. <--rude, trying to make a person look stupid so you don't have to give source.

>>The fact that this is coming from a professor from MIT (plus countless other teachers, mentors, and people I have met) shows that it has enough validity to be taken into account. <-- no validity until is proved with reliable sources.

>>Alright then. You don't have to believe me. However, whether there is a correlation between real-life murders/rape and playing rape video games <--- trying to dismiss the fact you couldn't prove your statement.

Prove me your MIT statement, your universal evidence(?) and everything in between. I'll prove mine when you prove yours.

3- Insulting me every other time, because that's a great way to debate maturely.

I have taken every single thing that you have said and have replied to them individually. It disappoints me that you do not see that I have quoted each of your paragraphs and have responded to them individually.

All you're doing is going back to my MIT reference, which was actually a MIT/teacher/mentor reference. :/

If you refuse to take into account the fundamentals of intelligent debate, I will not debate you. Thus, I am done, not because you have succeeded in changing my views (quite the contrary actually... you have reinforced them) but because I came here for intelligent debate.

I don't exactly think being called gay is that bad. Actually I think someone saying something is gay is only horrible since it promotes homophobia. Except being raped is a whole other issue. Each time I get on the bus, I hate having to remember that the old man looking at me from across the bus is probably imagining ways to get his hands on me. I'm waiting for the day all men are scared shitless to even look at me because of laws made by women under a world powered by women. In that world who ever had anything to do with Rapelay would, hands down, be killed.

"I swear officers, my stick drawings are 18 years of age, they just look skinnier than they look!"

What if they have no boobs?!?! you're screwed then.

They're underdeveloped? >.>

XD After reading through all the flaming/heated debate here, this was a welcome reprieve.

Thank Fukuei for making that timeline, I just went with it ^^